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	Kathy B: Erzsebet nemes Janosi I am searching for information about my husband's great-great grandmother and her family. Her name was Erzsebet nemes Janosi. She was born 11-12-1838 in Sarospatak. Date of death is unknown. Her father's name was Istvan and her mother's name was Sara Perpes. Erzsebet married Karoly Szalay in 1866, we believe they only had one child that they named Karoly. Any information about this family would be appreciated. Thank you.		21/03/2006, 02:50:38 #: 2006031302 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer I am looking to find information on Janos (John) Kramer who was born in Sarospatak, Xemplen, Megye, Hungary on 8 October 1882. I know he came to the US in October 1902. He was married to Zsuzsanna Radnoti in the US. His father was Antal Kramer, also born in Sarospatak in approximately 1854. I do not know his wife's name.		24/09/2010, 20:06:11 #: 201009890 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer Also, Janos Kramer's father Antal Kramer was born in Sarospatak in about 1854. He married Anna Gotz. We do not know where she was from.		13/12/2010, 22:39:26 #: 201012380 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer stevejs Sarospatak, Zemplen megye, Hungary http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/zemplen.jpg Sarospatak's church records in LDS-Mormons [Family History Center] site http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localitydetails&subject=78718&subject_disp=Hungary, Zemplén, Sárospatak&columns=*,0,0 from NY EI site: www.ellisislandrecords.org Kramer, Erzsebet Sarospatak, Hungary 23 1890 1913 Kramer, Erzsebet Sarospatak, Hungary 16 1894 1910 Kramer, Erzsebet Sarospatak 14 1891 1905 Kramer, Janos Sarospatak, Hungary 2 1908 1910 Kramer, Janos Sarospatak 18 1884 1902 Kramer, Zsuzsana Sarospatak, Hungary 23 1887 1910 Kramer, Zsuzsana Sarospatak, Hungary 3 1907 1910 Radnoti, Gyorgy Levart, Hungary 33 1876 1909 Radnoti, Gyorgy Levarte 28 1876 1904 Radnoti, Janos Deresk, Hungary 34 1880 1914 Radnoti, Janos Deresk, Hungary 27 1881 1908 Radnoti, Janos Deresk 25 1881 Radnoti, Karoly Levart 42 1862 1904 Radnoti, Karoly 33 1863 1896 Radnoti, Karoly Levart 36 1863 1899 Radnoti, Laszlo Levard 33 1869 1902 Radnoti, Magdalena Dreskova, Cz. Slov. 11 1910 Radnoti, Maria Dreskova, Cz. Slov. 34 1887 1921 Radnoty, Karoly Levart 32 1869 1901 Since they married in US, did you locate the state marriage application and church marriage record?		14/12/2010, 00:38:15 #: 201012381 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer stevejs Going thru Sarospatak's church record should provide you with Anna GOTZ's place of birth. http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=localityhitlist&columns=*,0,0&PLACE=sarospatak&PARTOF=&prePLACE=sarospatak&prePARTOF= Kramer, Jozsef Saraspatak 18 1888 1906 Gocz, Stefan Sarospotak 36 1866 1902 Goth, Ferencz Sarospatak 33 1870 1903 Gocz, Antal Sarospatak 7 1895 1902 Gocz, Erzsi Sarospatak 1 1901 1902 Gocz, Istvan Sarospatak 9 1893 1902 Gocz, Margit Sarospatak 32 1870 1902 Gocz, Maria Sarospatak 3 1899 1902 view www.ellisislandrecords.org		14/12/2010, 00:51:08 #: 201012382 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer Zlatica, thank you for the information. I have limited access to FHC. From my mother's records: My mother has marriage records for Janos (John) Kramer (Senior) (1882-1950) married to Zsuzsanna Radnoti (born 1884 in Kovi, Hungary, died 1910 in NJ after returning from visiting family in Sarospatak). John (1882-1950) was born in Sarospatak. He had a brother Joseph and a sister Erzebet in Sarospatak at that time. John and Zsuzanna were married 6 February 1905 at I believe Our Lady of Hungary Catholic Church in Fords, NJ. For some reason, on the marriage certificate, her mother is listed as Barbara Czibula and her father as P. Paulus, and we do not know why her last name was Radnoti. We do not know if P. Paulus was a stepfather. We do not know if Czibula is her mother's maiden name. Witnesses were Adalbert Bagdi and Andrew Angyal. While in America, they had a daughter named Mary (born 1905). Zsuzanna took Mary with her to Kovi, possibly to move back there, in 1906. John Kramer, Sr. was supposed to come later. We have no record of her having a passport, so she may have had a Hungarian passport that she used to go back to Hungary. After arriving in Kovi, my grandfather, Janos (John) Kramer, Jr. was born (March 1907). Zsuzsanna may have been taking care of family business in Kovi. After her relatives died (probably in Kovi) she moved to Saospatek, possibly to take care of family business there. Her husband John's brother Joseph died, leaving 16 year old Erzsebet Kramer with no family (parents were also dead). Zsuzsanna got ill and decided to go home to America. They arrived back in America in 1910. She died 19 Dec 1910 and was buried at Our Lady of Hungary cemetery in Fords, NJ. Janos Kramer Sr. arrived in America 31 Oct 1902. Zsuzanna Kramer came back 15 July 1910 with Janos, Mary, and Elizabeth. From family notes, the Radnoti family made furniture and carved designs on wood and carved wooden utensils. We don't know the origins of the Radnoti line, or why Czibula and Paulus are on the marriage record as mother and father. Thank you for your help. My grandfather John Kramer, Jr. tried for many years to do this work, but did not have all the resources we have now.		16/12/2010, 15:57:31 #: 201012610 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer Zlatica, We are not sure Anna GOTZ was fully Hungarian. She only spoke German, not Hungarian. Her husband Antal Kramer (1854) was definitely born in Sarospatak. I assume they never left Sarospatak as their children were born there and remained there. Anna GOTZ may have been from some other town. I do not have birth or death dates for Anna, and no death date for Antal. Thank you for your help.		16/12/2010, 16:21:21 #: 201012611 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer You're welcome. Yes, the internet has been a blessing for genealogy. I might suggest you post on Ancestry and Genforum boards, if you have not already. You might also consider hiring a researcher to go thru the church records. There is one that comes on Hungary's Genforum, who might be willing to do some look up for you. I think he lives in Salt Lake City. Kövi, Gömör és Kis-Hont megye, Hungary now Kameňany, Slovakia 1773 Kövi, Kamenany, 1786 Köwi, Kamenani, 1808 Kövi, Kameňany, 1863–1913 Kövi, 1920– Kameňany [all the names this village was known by]		16/12/2010, 16:23:34 #: 201012613 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer stevejs GOTZ does seem German spelling of Hungarian GOCZ. I would say same or very close pronouncation. Granted, I am neither German or Hungarian. KRAMER is that not with German roots as well?		16/12/2010, 16:28:52 #: 201012615 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer Yes, Kramer is German. My grandfather said they were part of the Germans that settled in Hungary during the reign of Maria Theresa (between 1745-about 1798). My grandfather, the one born in Kovi but coming to America when he was 2, spoke, read, and wrote both Hungarian and German fluently (as well as English). This leads me to believe they spoke Hungarian in the home. My mother indicated that they spoke High German; definitely not low peasant German. On my father's side, Danube Schwabians who settled near Lake Balaton, the ethnic Germans mainly spoke the low peasant German, and learned Hungarian in school, but didn't speak it in the home. My father and aunt primarily learned German when they lived in Veszprem County as children. To me, it appears as the Germans who went to the Carpathian Mountains/foothills were possibly from a different area of Germany than those that settled south and west of Budapest. I have wondered about the name Radnoti. I believe it is Hungarian, not German. I don't know the roots of Czibula and Paulus, but suspect Czibula may also be Hungarian. My grandather was never able to determine when the Kramer's came to Hungary from Germany, or what part of Germany they were from. This is one of my quests!		16/12/2010, 16:44:46 #: 201012616 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer I have just been thinking of getting my mother an account on Ancestry.com for Christmas and maybe she can find something out. I didn't know about Genforum. i will check it out.		16/12/2010, 16:47:55 #: 201012617 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer One can post a query on Ancestry and Genforum without having a paid customer but of course, with a subscription to Ancestry one can find more. http://genforum.com [countries]		16/12/2010, 17:00:59 #: 201012620 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer stevejs cibula in Slovak means onion. Are you familiar with this site? http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/		16/12/2010, 17:07:22 #: 201012621 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer I have not seen that site. I will check it out. It occurred to me that my great-grandmother Zsuzanna died 100 years ago this coming Sunday (Dec. 19th). Maybe I can find her parents for her. That would be nice. Thanks again.		16/12/2010, 18:09:40 #: 201012622 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Janos Kramer, Antal Kramer stevejs That would be nice. I am confident that you will find some information. http://www.kamenany.ocu.sk/sk/ Village Kamenany is in area code 058 of Slovakia's phone book but none in Kamenany but did find RADNOTY and RADNOTI in Tornala, Rimavska Sobota which are closer to Hungary's border. With so little RADNOTYs and RADNOTIs in the SK's phone book, it is possible they are related to each other and even to your Zsuzanna. Radnothi, Karoly Levart, Hungary 46 1863 1909 Radnothi, Karoly Levart, Hungary 46 1863 1909 Radnoti, Gyorgy Levart, Hungary 33 1876 1909 Radnoti, Gyorgy Levarte 28 1876 1904 Radnoti, Karoly Levart 42 1862 1904 Radnoti, Karoly Levart 36 1863 1899 Radnoty, Karoly Levart 32 1869 1901 Maybe there is something to this location. Leváre, Slovakia 1773 Levárth, Lewarth, 1786 Lewarth, 1808 Lévárth, 1863, 1895–1902 Levárt, 1873–1892, 1907–1913, 1927–1948 Lévárt, 1920 Gemerské Leváre, 1948–1992 Strelnice, 1993– Leváre[all the names this village was known by] in 1995 surnames in this village V obci LEVÁRE (okr. RIMAVSKÁ SOBOTA) sa v roku 1995 nachádzali najčastejšie tieto priezviská: GALO 16×; GALOVÁ 11×; JÓNAI 5×; JÓNAIOVÁ 5×; MAGYAROVÁ 4×; LAKATOŠ 3×; HALÁSZ 3×; SZOBONYA 3×; SZEPESIOVÁ 3×; DUCZMAN 3×; PALICOVÁ 2×; UJPÁL 2×; BALOG 2×; SZEPEŠIOVÁ 2×; MAGYAR 2×; UJPÁLOVÁ 2×; DUCZMANOVÁ 2×; MAĎAR 2×; TÓTHOVÁ 2×; HERCZEGOVÁ 2×; SZOBONYOVÁ 2×; RUSZÓ 2×; SZEPESI 2×; GERGELYOVÁ 2×; HERCZEG 2×; BLAŠKO 2×; BENCE 1×; MAĎAROVÁ 1×; PECNÍK 1×; BARTA 1×; LEŠTÁK 1×; BARTOVÁ 1×; LESTÁKOVÁ 1×; RUSZÓOVÁ 1×; KOCSISOVÁ 1×; SEPEŠI 1×; GERGELY 1×; TANKO 1×; JUHÁSZ 1×; HERCEGOVÁ 1×; RADNÓTI 1×; RUSÓ 1×; PALIC 1×; TÓTH 1×; LÁNYI 1×; RADNÓTIOVÁ 1×; HALÁSZOVÁ 1×; LIPTÁKOVÁ 1×; TYUKODYOVÁ 1×; BELÁNYIOVÁ 1×; BALOGOVÁ 1×; HERCEG 1×; BALÁZSOVÁ 1×; LAKATOŠOVÁ 1×; TYUKODY 1×; KOČIŠ 1× As you see, RADNOTI and RADNOTIOVA -female among them. Levare is about 8.5km South of Kamenany.		16/12/2010, 18:50:31 #: 201012623 post replyedit abuse? profile

	Zlatica : Re: Radnoti stevejs Radnoti, Janos Deresk, Hungary 34 1880 1914 Radnoti, Janos Deresk, Hungary 27 1881 1908 Radnoti, Janos Deresk 25 1881 1906 Radnoti, Magdalena Dreskova, Cz. Slov. 11 1910 1921 Radnoti, Maria Dreskova, Cz. Slov. 34 1887 1921 Držkovce, Slovakia 1773 Deresk, Dressko[w]cze, 1786 Dereschk, Dreschkowa [!], 1808 Deresk, Drsskowce, Držkowce, 1863–1913, 1938–1945 Deresk, 1920 Držkovce, 1927–1938, 1945–1948 Držkovce, Deresk, 1948– Držkovce [all the names this village was known by] http://www.drzkovce.ocu.sk/sk/ Drzkovce is 5km South of Kamenany and 4km from Levare. http://www.gemer.org/index.php?chlan=svk&id=&akcia=		17/12/2010, 15:24:59 #: 201012665 post replyedit abuse? profile

	stevejs: Re: Radnoti Zlatica, Thank you so much. As you were responding, I looked on the map and found out Deresk and Levart were so close to Kovi. Thank you for the link. I can't read a lot of it, but I have a friend who can help me. This is a break through for me. i certainly have some work to do now. The pictures from Drzkovce cemetery were somewhat helpful. We know have some Toths in the family tree also. Thanks again! Jennifer (aka stevejs)		17/12/2010, 20:19:51 #: 201012676 post replyedit abuse? profile

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