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ckirschbaum: Place names in Hungry

I have documents from my Great-grandparents that came from Austria-Hungry in 1904 to the U.S. which list their hometowns/birthplaces as "Cinyug", "Cenyack" or "Cenyak" and "Mohldutsch." I assume these are phonetic spellings? Does anyone know how these names are really spelled in Hungarian? I'm trying to locate these towns.

16/02/2009, 21:01:37
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Zlatica : Re: Place names in Hungry

ckirschbaum

What US document is the spelling from? What is the surname of your research? Did the ancestor come thru Ellis Island? I can only view those manifests as I do not have a paid subscription to Ancestry.

16/02/2009, 21:36:29
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ckirschbaum: Re: Place names in Hungry

The spellings came off of the Petition for Naturalization and the Declaration of Intent documents. According to these documents the came through New York, NY (Ellis Island, right?). The surname is Kirschbaum.

16/02/2009, 21:48:15
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Zlatica : Re: Place names in Hungry

c
did you find his EI manifest using www.stevemorse.org
What is his first name?
www.ellisislandrecords.org

16/02/2009, 21:51:57
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ckirschbaum: Re: Place names in Hungry

His first name is Edward, wife Katherine. I have not tried the websites you mentioned.

16/02/2009, 21:54:14
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Zlatica : Re: Place names in Hungry

c

Kerschba..., Eduard Szinyak 27 1877 1904
is he your ancestor?

16/02/2009, 22:01:52
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ckirschbaum: Re: Place names in Hungry

It might be. I don't know his middle name. His papers list his birth as April 23rd 1877 and that here came here in 1903 (left?) or 1904 (arrived?). Where did you find that piece of info?

16/02/2009, 22:13:06
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Zlatica : Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

c

Szinyak, Bereg megye, Hungary :: Chynadiievo [Syniak},Ukraine
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/bereg.jpg
http://atlas.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&formtype=latlong&latlongtype=decimal&latitude=48.4833&longitude=22.8333&size=big

16/02/2009, 22:14:35
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Zlatica : Re: Place names in Hungry

c
Don't worry about a middle. No middle name in old country.
All the info is from www.ellisislandrecords.org
Are you new to the research? You need to register to EI site, but no money.

16/02/2009, 22:16:31
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ckirschbaum: Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

Wow! Thanks! Is that the historic name vs. the current name?

16/02/2009, 22:18:44
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Zlatica : Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

c

Yes.
http://genrootsblog.blogspot.com/2009/02/german-immigrant-ancestor-hometown.html
www.genealogienetz.de/reg since your ancestral surname is German. Was he Hebrew? If yes, www.jewishgen.org

16/02/2009, 22:20:31
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Zlatica : Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

c

few more maps:
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/tantort/2003/palyazat/40-48_munkacs.jpg right hand corner the village is Szentmiklos;
http://www.mapywig.org/m/WIG100_300DPI/P55_S35_4669_Mukacevo_300dpi.jpg right hand corner as C'inadovo, Czechoslovakia www.cgsi.org map of Czechoslovakia
one more:
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/200e/40-48.jpg right hand corner Szt.Miklos
www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/loctown.htm

16/02/2009, 22:30:36
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ckirschbaum: Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

Thanks a lot! I'll need some time to digest this and might have some more questions. Are you from this area?

17/02/2009, 01:41:08
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ckirschbaum: Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

What are the links to the maps of the villages of Szentmiklos, C'inadovo, Szt.Miklos that you provided? I'm confused about that? Are they close to SZINYAK?

17/02/2009, 02:18:59
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Zlatica : Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

You're welcome.
No, I am not from that area or in that area. I am in Ohio.

17/02/2009, 04:05:42
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Bill Tarkulich: Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

Zlatica,
what makes you certain this is the village?

Mr. Kirschbaum has contacted me separately and revealed a collection of village names and places that are not consistent with Bereg county.
In one instance he indicates he is from Hungary.
In 1940 he indicates he is from Germany. This is during the Anschluss. His wife also indicated she was from Germany. Both of her parents were from Bohemia. Both his parents were from Poland. In 1930 he says he's from Czechoslovakia as does he. I am suspicious that "Mohldutsch" may be the German name for the same village.
Given the German ethnicity and naming traditions, and that he was married in europe, there is too much contradictory data to draw the Bereg conclusion yet.
I might be looking around the borderlands.
bt

17/02/2009, 04:09:59
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Zlatica : Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

c

I guess you are a newbie. :)
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/digkonyv/topo/3felmeres.htm
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910
http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/tantort/2003/palyazat/index.htm
http://igrek.amzp.pl/mapindex.php?cat=WIG100
These are the full map sites. I provided only the ones/coordinates where the village is on each one.
Szentmiklos one and the same as Szt.Miklos, Bereg megye - Hungarian
Sziniak/Syniak/Siniak seems Slavic name
C'inadovo was the name of the village when it was in Czechoslovakia
Chynadiievo (Syniak) is Ukrainian name of the village.

17/02/2009, 04:13:45
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Zlatica : Re: Szinyak, Bereg m.

Bill

What other documents does Mr. Kirschbaum has? Did he look on the manifest of Kerschba..., Eduard Szinyak 27 1877 1904 Is it his ancestor? I was just following up on the location Szinyak on this Eduard.
My grandparents put down Austria on their state marriage license and they should have put Hungary.
I agree that Mohldutsch sounds German but I did not find it using www.ihff.at www.kartenmeister.com

17/02/2009, 04:20:51
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Zlatica : Re: German-Czech

Bill

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gbhs/resources/czech/placenames.html
http://www.genealogienetz.de/reg/SUD/orte/M.html
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_deutscher_Bezeichnungen_tschechischer_Orte
Is the petition hand written by the ancestor or typed by a office clerk? Spelling, spelling, spelling is so important in trying to get to the location.

17/02/2009, 04:30:35
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

Bill and Zlatica,

Here are the documents I have on Edward. They are typed.

1 of 4

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17/02/2009, 04:34:21
#: 200902969
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

2 of 4

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17/02/2009, 04:37:26
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

3 of 4

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17/02/2009, 04:38:32
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

4 of 4

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17/02/2009, 04:39:09
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

Here is the 1910 census too in case that is helpful. I can't make out what it says before Germany. I don't have the 1930 census electronically but lists that they spoke German and that their home country as Czechoslovakia. My GGP parents were listed from Poland and my GGM parents were listed from Boehmia.

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17/02/2009, 04:49:50
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

Ah... here is the 1920 census. It lists their language as Magyar. Maybe that will shed some more light? Anyway its getting late and so I may go to sleep soon. This is all too exciting! Thanks for all your help.

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17/02/2009, 04:53:26
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Zlatica : Re: German-Czech

Now there is a twist, Magyar as in Hungarian.
Would that make them a Banat Germans? or ?
www.genealogienetz.de/reg/ESE/dsinfo.htm
Any luck locating the family in 1930 census? That is the census that I think would be more correct as in naming a "correct" name of a the country they were born in.
What US documents have you on the children that were born in "old country"?

17/02/2009, 04:58:11
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Zlatica : Re: German-Czech

c

I see Ger.Germany, father has filed Pa-first papers.
Were Caroline and Marie naturalized at the same time as their parents?
Bohemia http://feefhs.org/maps/AH/ah-bohem.html

17/02/2009, 05:02:25
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Zlatica : Re: German-Czech

c

On 1920 census father, mother and one daughter were Al-alien. Did you locate Eduard's draft registration form and Catherine's manifest?

17/02/2009, 05:07:46
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

I don't have the 1930 census electronically but it lists that they spoke German and that their home country was Czechoslovakia. My GGP parents were listed from Poland and my GGM parents were listed from Boehmia. My GPP still listed his naturilzation as Pa in the 1930 census. I wonder if WWII spurred their efforts to become citazens in 1940?

I don't have any documents on the children other than whats in the census and the whats listed on the parent's docs.

17/02/2009, 05:09:12
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

What does Ger Germany mean?

I don't know if the kids were naturalized at the same time. How could I find out?

17/02/2009, 05:11:20
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Zlatica : Re: German-Czech

c

Eduard would have to fill our a draft registration before WWl. Is the naturalization petition typed or written? Was it your ancestor that filled it out or office clerk?
Did you locate Eduard and Catherine's manifest?

17/02/2009, 05:14:26
#: 200902984
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

What is the draft registration form?

Bill found Catherine's manifest:
Kerchbaum, Katharina, Szmyok, 21, 1884, 1905
SS Kroonland, sailing from Antwerp
Arrived april 25 1905
Line 17
German race
Hungary nationality
Szmoyok
Going to Eduard Kirschbaum, Oskosh, Wisc. 406 13th street.
Could not read or write
Passage paid by husband,
Had no money
Now, note who traveled with her:
Josef Kirchbaum, bro in law, age 21
Karolina, daughter, age 3
Maria daughter age 1

17/02/2009, 05:14:51
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

I'm not sure where to find the draft registration... do you know? What would it tell me?

Above I posted the Declaration of Intent and the Petition for Naturalization for both GPPs. They were both typed.

Bill also found Edward's manifest:
He arrived in NYC on 9/12/04 on SS Noordam.
Series T715, Roll 493, Frame 211, Line 29
Go to Steve Morse site, use �missing manifest� tool to find it.
It says,
27 years old
Laborer
German � Magyar (suggests he spoke german but was of Magyar (Hungarian) ethnicity. From the village of SZINYEK. This is Magyar spelling.

17/02/2009, 05:18:48
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Zlatica : Re: naturalization

I think it just repeats Germany, Germany.
The naturalization process changed several times and different procedure but
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=652d04e2d331e010VgnVCM1000000ecd190aRCRD
http://www.uwm.edu/Library/arch/citizen.htm

17/02/2009, 05:21:54
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Zlatica : Re: draft registration form

Draft Registration Form should have his place of birth, place of employment, wife's name. You should be able to find it on Ancestry if you have a paid subscription.
Most of the time a spelling problem when an US document is typed by an office clerk and not filled out by an ancestor.
That is same Eduard that I found arriving from Szinyak who was going to a friend Alois DENSENSTADT, Oshkosh, Wisc. I found it using www.stevemorse.org town: Szinyak.
Kerschba..., Eduard Szinyak
Pensestadler, Borbala Szinyak
Pichler, Jozsef Szinyak Being that only these 3 from Szinyak that the spelling might not be correct.

17/02/2009, 05:32:30
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Zlatica : Re: Kerchbaum

Kerchbaum, Josef Szmyok 21 1884 1905
Kerchbaum, Karolina Szmyok 3 1902 1905
Kerchbaum, Katharina Szmyok 21 1884 1905
Kerchbaum, Maria Szmyok 2 1903 1905
They have Hungary German.
They arrived thru Ellis Island. Any documents on Josef?
Not finding any town Szmyok. The shipping clerk did not spelled it correctly being that they are the only ones that show up coming thru EI from this town. Do you know Katharina's maiden name?

17/02/2009, 05:56:11
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Zlatica : Re: M�hls....

c
went back to www.ihff.at looking for a town starting with MUHLS and this is what I got:
M�hlspreng Prasily B�hmen
M�hlscheibe Mlynice Nova Ves B�hmen
M�hlsch�ttel Floridsdorf Wien
M�hlstatt W�rgl Tirol
M�hlstaudet V�cklamarkt Ober�sterreich
M�hlsteig Scheuchenstein Nieder�sterreich
M�hlstra�e Eggenberg-Hl. Schutzengel Steiermark

17/02/2009, 06:53:16
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ckirschbaum: Re: Kerchbaum

I have no documents on Josef. Katherine's maiden may have been "Yarosh" according to the last living sibling of Katherine and Edward.

17/02/2009, 12:21:44
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Zlatica : Re: Kerchbaum

YAROSH can be JAROS, JAROSCH, JAROSS, JAROSZ.
Any records on the children that were born in US?

17/02/2009, 14:59:44
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Bill Tarkulich: Re: German-Czech

Minor Immigrant Children are automatically naturalized when their father(mother) is. Prior to 1907, a woman's status followed her husband. http://www.iabsi.com/gen/public/imm_names.htm#any woman

You ask an interesting question about immigrant alien children as adults. It's quite likely they had to apply also. It was not just the war that provided incentive for folks to naturalize, but 1938 Social Security. During WWII there was severe restrictions, monitoring and discrimination towards ethnic Germans.

What ethnicity does your family believe KIRSCHBAUM is?

17/02/2009, 15:46:40
#: 2009021048
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Zlatica : Re: Places

c

Is "dutsch" like Deutsche aka German?
http://www.ihff.at/indexstarte.htm
I typed deutsch in the window and got 106 towns with Deutsch in the name. I did not go thru all of them but did find a Deutschemuhle in Steiermark.

17/02/2009, 21:23:16
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Zlatica : Re: Places

c

Decided to go thru the 106.
Found: Deutsch M�hle
nowadays spelling of the village Nemecky mlyn
Parish attribution Pernarec, Bohmen/Bohemia
Like looking for a needle in a hay stack without having the correct spelling of the ancestral village.

17/02/2009, 21:30:31
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ckirschbaum: Re: Kerchbaum

Records for the kids born in the U.S....? What kind of records? All I have is whats in the Census posted above. What other kinds of records would I need and what info would I be looking for?

18/02/2009, 03:33:45
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

I've been told our ethnicity was German and Bohemian on the Kirschbaum side.

18/02/2009, 03:35:34
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Bill Tarkulich: Re: German-Czech

Germany is a nation, German is an ethnicity.
Bohemia is a region, not an ethnicity.

people often confuse ethnicity with nationality, especially in countries that have a dominant ethnicity greece=greek, italy=italian. Hungary had about one dozen ethnicities. Every nation has minorities. So the confusion persists. Pursue it and sort it out.

18/02/2009, 03:42:27
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Bill Tarkulich: Re: German-Czech

Re: children born in europe.
not true that y ou have no evidence of their birthplace. You have a passenger manifest stating the date the two children arrived in new york. it also shows their birthplace.

These children would need to naturalize to become citizens since the parents waited until the children were adults to naturalize themselves. By petitioning the BCIS for the children's immigration records, you can see in those documents their birthplace. http://tinyurl.com/6gp6gt

The more independent documents you can find stating the birthplace, the better chance you have of nailing it down.

18/02/2009, 03:47:18
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Zlatica : Re: documents

c

Just now came upon your 4 posts with the documents. Did not get notified. In any case, I can not enlarge the document on my side of the computer to see the document. Can you somehow redo them for me here on the board or send them to my private e-mail so as not to congest the board.
zlatalzbetka2 at hotmail.com

18/02/2009, 04:04:14
#: 2009021092
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Zlatica : Re: more questions

c

Did Edward and Katherine have social security numbers? http://ssdi.rootsweb.com The SS-5Form should have a place of birth and parents names.
What religion were your ancestors? I hear that German churches in US kept a very comprehensive records.
You might try requesting Edward's brother's SS-5Form, if he had one. He also would have to fill out a draft registration form. You found anything on the friend, Lois DENZENSTADT that Eduard was going to? I would think that he was from the same village as Eduard. Maybe knowing where Lois was from might provide a clue. I wish there were more than the 3 people coming from Szinyak so I would have something to compare with. Wondering if the shipping clerk wrote a Sinjak in an Hungarian spelling Szinyak but that still not pointing to Bohemia. Below are the closes in spelling to DENZENSTADT that I found coming thru EI to America.
Penzenshadler, Joh
Penzenshadler, Lina
Penzenstadler, Adele 22 1875 1897
Penzenstadler, Anna Hungary 28 1881 1909
Penzenstadler, John Pas... 32 1871 1903
Penzenstadler, Josef Hungary 25 1884 1909
Penzenstadler, Ludwig Vienna, Austria
Penzenstadler, Raimund Preittenberg 2 1891
Penzenstadler, Raimund... Preittenberg 30 1863 1893
Penzenstatter, Johan
Penzerstadler, Johann
Penzerstadler, Ludwig
Pensestadler, Borbala Szinyak

18/02/2009, 05:01:30
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ckirschbaum: Re: more questions

None of those seem promising for the Alois in Oshkosh. Maybe I can find something on him on Ancestry

19/02/2009, 02:41:09
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ckirschbaum: Re: German-Czech

Wouldn't they get automatically naturalized if they married someone born in the U.S. If so what paper work would I look for then, if any?

19/02/2009, 02:42:41
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ckirschbaum: Re: Kerchbaum

Kerchbaum, Karolina Szmyok 3 1902 1905
Karolina became Karoline Ferderbar or Caroline Tenderfor (depending on whose Petition of Naturalization you look at) and lived in Milwaukee, WI in 1940-1945 at least. She must have been married prior to 1920 because she is not on the Kirschbaum household that year. Maybe I can find her in the 1920 or 1930 census under her married name? Would that help?

Kerchbaum, Maria Szmyok 2 1903 1905
Maria became Mary Schaefer. She lived Chicago, IL in 1940, Pine BLuff AR in 1944 and California in 1945. She was at home in the 1920 census. I'm not sure about the 1903 census since I don't have it in front of me.

Looks like a long process to get paper work from BCIS but if I have to I'll put in the request.

19/02/2009, 02:55:00
#: 2009021150
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Zlatica : Re: German-Czech

c
Not until 1906 were wives and children listed by name on naturalization documents. If relevant, the names of an applicant�s spouse and children, their birthdates and places, and current residence were required on citizenship papers.

An interesting twist in the laws pertaining to women occurred in 1922. Until that year, women and children were automatically granted citizenship with their husbands/fathers. On 22 September 1922, an act was passed that required women to become citizens in compliance with current naturalization laws, although no declaration of intent was required. The 1922 act also stated that a woman who married an alien would lose her citizenship! She would then have to go through the naturalization process to regain it. It took nine years for the decision-makers to come to their senses, and that section of the law was repealed in March 1931.
Watch your e-box for 4 e-mails from me.

19/02/2009, 03:21:03
#: 2009021152
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rzavodnyik: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Hi, I am looking for info re my relatives in the Bohemian and Ukrainian areas. My grandmother was Penzenstadler born in Tachov. She moved to Sinyak with her parents and married Zavodnyik Janos there. Her mother was Zirnzak, and I am now looking for the Kirschbaum and Schwartz connection. I stumbled on a ckirschbaum post from 2009 and it looks like all of the names are unbelievably similar. Please help!
Kind regards
Rachael

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22/09/2010, 02:23:05
#: 201009777
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ckirschbaum: Re: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Hi Rachael,

Yes there are some similarities and we should talk. My email is cdkirschbaum -a-t- yahoo.com -d-o-t- I'm a little busy right now but lets talk some more. Do you have any Oshkosh or Wisconsin connections? The Janos is similar to my greatgrandmothers name which has been recorded as Jarosh but no one is forsure on that. Lets compare notes.

22/09/2010, 02:29:14
#: 201009778
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rzavodnyik: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

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22/09/2010, 02:56:31
#: 201009779
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Kerschbaum: Re: Place names in Hungry

16/01/2011, 18:36:03
#: 201101733
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Kerschbaum: Re: Place names in Hungry

Hello ckirschbaum,
I have found this page through Google.
I was born in the Village Sinyak(Cenyak)which belongs now to Ukraine.
Sinyak belonged before to Austria-Hungary
1991 we have moved from Sinyak to Germany.
so you must excuse my bad english.
Sinyak was/ is a village in Ukraine where many have Austrian/German lived.
My father says that my great- grandfather (name: Johann Kerschbaum) had a brother or cousin,(he does not know it exactly),which moved to America. It could be that your great- grandfather and my are relatedly with each other.

16/01/2011, 19:53:36
#: 201101738
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Kerschbaum: Re: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Hello rzavodnyik,
my name is Kerschbaum
i have lived in Sinyak- Ukraine
1991 we moved to Germany.
my grandma maiden names was Zirnsak.
We know the family Penzenstadler. They have lived also in Sinyak and now they are in Germany too.

16/01/2011, 20:24:32
#: 201101740
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cdkirschbaum: Re: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Hi,

Whats your first name? Mine is Chad.

Thanks for the posting. Lets explore this a little further.
Can you find any records of the sons of Johann Kerschbaum (census record, birth records, etc.)? Maybe you would be able access records there that I can't get here

My great grandfather, the one from Sinyak, was named Edward, he had a brother named Josef. Joesef came here in 1905 with Edward's wife and two kids. Edward married Catherine and I think her maiden name was something like Yarosh.

Lets try to find some documents that would help up confirm this relationship...

19/01/2011, 03:45:07
#: 201101858
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RzavOdnyik: Re: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Kerschbaum - can you please contact me at rzavodnyik at bigpond dot com I'd love to explore this further. It sounds like we are related.

19/01/2011, 07:05:49
#: 201101860
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Dr. Sandor Bokotey: Zirnsak/Kerschbaum

Dear All,

I would like to share some information regarding Zirnsak and Kerschbaum families I have.

First, Szinyak and Chinadijevo (Grabovnica) today are villages in Karpatian region, Ukraine. During Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy Szinyak vas named as K�kesf�red, Csinadijevo as Szentmikl�s. I still have relatives there.
A lot of Germans (Shvabis) were lived and still living in that area.

My grandmother is Ter�zia Zirnsak (1910-1977). Her parents are: Johan Zirnsak(in Hungarian J�nos) and Franciska Schmidtberger. Johan was born in 1867 (Szinyak)and died in 1948 (Csinadijevo). Franciska was born in 1872 (Steierdorf, today Romania)and died in 1948 (Csinadijevo). Their marriage date: 12 Nov 1893 (Steierdorf). I have a picture of their grave made in Csinadijevo.

Parents of Johan Zirnsak: Ferdin�nd Zirnsak and M�ria Kerschbaum. Ferdinand was born in 1837 (Oberlichtbuchet?, today Prahatice, Slovakia), M�ria in 1845 (Szinyak). Their marriage date: 29 Apr 1864 (in Hungarian Munk�cs, today Mukacheve, Ukraine).

Parents of Ferdin�nd Zirnsak (above): Ferenc (Franz) Zirnsak and M�ria Anna Nagelm�ller (she is also from Oberlichtbuchet, today Prahatice, Slovakia).
Parents of M�ria Kerschbaum: Andr�s (Andreas) Kerschbaum and Franciska Schpelcer.

I am not sure that Kirschbaum and Kerschbaum are the same families, but most likely that it is true. Unfortunately, today I have just my direct ancestor's lines, except the whole family of my grandmother Zirnsak Ter�zia (8 children), no more information about siblings.
I have some information about Zirsak descendants, some of them are living in Ukraine, Slovakia, Germany and Canada today.

I live in Hungary (Budapest) and really interested in these families, plus also in Bokotey (Bokotej), Szentimrey (Szent-Imrey), R�zs�r and B�zsing families.

Sorry for my English, if I can support you more, please, don't hesitate to contact me.

My e-mails: sandor.bokotey -a-t- citromail -d-o-t- hu and sandor.bokotey@sanofi-aventis.com. Please, write on both addresses for each letter.

Hope, I could help.

With kind regards,

Sandor

25/01/2011, 12:47:08
#: 2011011122
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ckirschbaum: Re: Zirnsak/Kerschbaum

Hi Sandor,

Thank-you for your email. Here is the information I have on my great grandfather Edward Kirschbaum

Born: 23 March 1877
Died: 17 Jan 1947
Immigrated: 3 Sept 1904
Marriage: Catherine Yarosh (sp?) was born in Mohldutsch.
Brother of Edward: Josef (Immigrated in 1905 with Catherine and two kids)
Kids that were born in Szinyak and immigrated in 1905: Caroline born 1903(?) and Maria (Mary) born 1904

The next thing we need to do is figure out the connection, if there is one, between your family and mine. Edward and Josef would have to be related to Maria Kerschbaum Zirsak. She could not have been their mother because they have the Kirschbaum name. So, perhaps she had a brother who was Edward's and Josef's father.

Do you know of any ways you could find out who their other sons and daughter were of Andr�s (Andreas) Kerschbaum and Franciska Schpelcer? Have you used Family Search? (https://www.familysearch.org/s/collection/list#page=1®ion=EUROPE). There are records for Ukraine, Hungary and Czechoslovakia but my geography of that area is bad so I might be missing something, Maybe you can turn up some records. I think Edward's death records said his dad's name was Mathews.

Maybe you can help me here since you are more familiar with the geography and ethnicity of that area:
In the 1920 U.S. census, (attached), Edward was listed as being born in Hungary and his mother tongue was Magyar. Does that make sense based on what you know about your family? Also in that census was his parents birth place which I can't read, can you? There mother tongue was German.

In the 1930 U.S. census, Edward was listed as being born in Czechoslovakia and his parents were born in Poland. Would that make sense based on what you know about your family? Catherine (his wife) was listed as being born in Czechoslovakia and her parents were born in Boehmia. Does that geography make sense?

Does any of this give us any clues? Just because the census said these things doesn't mean they are true because there have been lots of errors found in these census records.

Is Mohldutsch (where Catherine Yarosh was born) a town near Szinyak? Can you help me find it?

I've also CC'ed Rachael Zavodnyik on this email. It looks she also might be related to your line. You can see her post on the Radix Forum. Also someone named Kerschbaum posted on this Radix forum in 16 Jan 2011. Do you think you are related? He mentioned a Johan Kirschbaum.

Well, thats enough questions to bother you with for know. I hope we can solve this together.

Cheers,
Chad

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27/01/2011, 03:54:06
#: 2011011213
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ckirschbaum: Re: Zirnsak/Kerschbaum

Picture of Edward Kirschbaum is attached. I have better ones but this is the best I have access to right now. I also have a picture of Edward's mother (no name) if that would help.

-Chad

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27/01/2011, 04:00:37
#: 2011011214
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ckirschbaum: Re: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Hi Rachael,

Thanks for getting back to me. Did you ever get an email from the Kerschbaum on the Radix Forum? I'd like to hear more about his possible family connections.

Also, please see the post and email I sent to Sandor (cc'ed here too). I think we should really try to find the son and daughters of his Andr�s (Andreas) Kerschbaum and Franciska Schpelcer. It could be that your Clara (or is it Klara?), my Edward and Josef, Sandor's Maria and Kerschbaum's Johann are all siblings. Or maybe your Clara is a daughter of Maria Kerschbaum Zirnsak. Any thoughts on how we should proceed?

Also, in previous email, I asked you if you had known of any family connections in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. That where Edward Kirschbaum was heading to see a friend, Alois DENSENSTADT (could this be a misspelling of Penzenstadler?) when he got off the boat.

Cheers,
Chad

27/01/2011, 04:21:18
#: 2011011215
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jo: Re: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Hi,
meine Familie stammt aus Oberlichtbuchet ( B�hmen).
In meiner Ahnenreihe gibt es sowohl "schwarz" als
auch "Penzenstadler".
Ebenso Alois Penzenstadler aus Scheureck (B�hmen).

Vieleicht gibt es Verbindungen.

Bei Fragen bitte mail
Gru�, Jo

06/03/2012, 21:25:33
#: 201203213
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rzavodnyik: Re: Kirschbaum and Penzenstadler

Herztliche Grusse Jo -
My german is too bad to continue.
Bitte schreib mir aus rzavodnyik @ bigpond dot com
Vielen Dank
Rachael

08/05/2013, 12:27:04
#: 201305114
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